plus the nra's double down. the organization's ceo says if it's crazy to arm police in school, then call him crazy. >> i know there's a media machine in this country that wants to blame guns every time something happens. i know there's an anti-second amendment instrument in this town. but first eight days until the fiscal cliff deadlines, through the has of congress not a creature is stirring, not even a lawmakers. hopes of a deal are fading. before taking off, the president urged congress that pass a scaled-back stop-gap measure. >> senators agreed on sunday to

pass -- >> i think unfortunately there will only be a small deal. >> it is going to be a patch. >> kristin welker, traveling with the president in honolulu. the question is will he be cutting hi vacation short? does he have a royal to play? or is it up to the senate, as some are saying? >> reporter: first of all, i think it is likely we'll see him cut his vacation short. senate majority leader harry reid, minority leader mitch mcconnell will have to work together. a lot of focus shifts to mcdonnell. he has to try to get something that will pass with republicans that they can get through the house and senate, but i think

president obama certainly has a role to play. remember, he is the one who ran on the platform. you heard him map out on friday. he would like a scaled-back version of the grand bargain, something to prevent taxes going up, and also lay the groundwork potentially for deficit reduction in the future. i think you will see president obama cut his vacation short, and continue to play a role in those negotiations. richard. kristin, over the weekend, he attended the funeral for the late senator inouye, who he has called an inspiration to him. what did you see in that service? >> well, more than 20 members of congress attended, mostly democrats, majority leader harry reid spoke and praised senator inouye for his partisan spirit,

reaching across the aisle. of course in an earlier memorial service, the president called the late senator his earlier inspiration, on a a lot of members of congress came together to pay their respects. >> thank you, kristin. if congress and the president fail to reach a deal, the impact is as unlikely as immediate as the term "fiscal cliff" seems to imply. the expiration of the tax cuts with a $2200 average tax high. the payroll tax cut would also expire meaning another $40 a paycheck and long-term unemployment benefits would end for 2 million americans.

while these elements could have a recession-inducing effect, they could undo those measures shortly after the first of the year. estimations are if we do go over the cliff it would be the third quarter which the recession may hit. when be look at the issue of a -- the markets, however, may feel the brunt of the fiscal cliff fallout. the dow fell on friday after the deal failed the night before. last week fitch warned it may downgrade the u.s. credit rating if congress cannot reach a deal. some lawmakers are angling for the best political outcountry.

>> when i listen to the president, i think he's eager to go over the cliff for political purposes. he gets all this additional tax revenue for new programs, gets to cut the military which democrats have been calling for for years, and he gets to blame republicans for it. implts joining me are off and on johnson and cheryl from rollcal. is the president rooting, planning for going over the cliff? >> i don't think so. >> and then let's remember, the president will give a lot of and the he does not want to be known as the president who failed to

get the economy roaring again. >> it seems like that amounts to very little. >> and that's exactly the problem. the statement that senator into razzo made yesterday i had been hearing for months. they simply do not believe there's any way out of this where they won't look like the scapegoat. i think they clearly think that if -- if we do go over the cliff, that they will be blamed for it. i've had some privately tell me that they know they look bad. but they also blame the president for not being able to strike a deal that gives them some yesterday at all. >> fawn, isn't it more difficult for the president now, for dealing with a speaker who can -- we're looking at a one on one strategy for all of the rep caucus?

>> i think it's more different for the president -- he's dealing with two republican leaders dealing with two different bodies. but the problem is whatever you do has to go through the house. the house made very clear last week that there's at least a minority of republicans who will not vote for any tax increase at all, which means you'll need help from democrats. so then you have this weird triangulation, where you're negotiating one deal, and not in a good way, so one deal with the senate, another deal with the house, and who knows what you'll come up with. >> who knows what you'll get in the 113th projectic the makeup in terms of ideology. and closer to the center there. the problem here for speaker

boehner, if he keeps in that job to find the 217 to get anything passed. will he be able to get them on board here? >> the math is very difficult. we saw that play out last week. they'll have to pull some democrats over to their side, maybe some pro-business, new democrats, maybe from some more conservative areas, suburban areas, they have to bring those guys over to. >> all right. to you here, off and on, the president saying he expected the fever to break after the holiday season. will it break?

>> that's an excellent question. it's been difficult to understand the fallout. it's pretty clear from the american public what they want. what's not clear is exactly what should be coming out from the election. the president very clearly has been saying his bargaining power should have been increased and they should win some concessions from reps. we have not seen the answer yet. i don't think we will until we see a resolution to the fiscal cliff. >> we're just seeing more and more moving parts, aren't we, in the beltway? thank you both. stick around we'll get back to you in a bit. senator mike crapo was arrested over the weekend.

he ran a red light, then failed several sobriety tests. officers say he was cooperative and released on a boon. he quickly released a statement apologizing for the incident. coming up for you, the tough road to the pentagon. former senator chuck hagel facing cry sim. and doubt from both sides of the aisle. >> i'd have to study his report. i'm not going to comment until the president make a nomination. plus we're following breaking news. two firefighters shot to death, as they respond to a fire. the latest of that, coming up. when you have diabetes...

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i don't think he's going to get many republican votes. i like chuck, but his positions -- i didn't quite

frankly know all of them -- are really out of the mainstream. >> i would have to study his report. i'm not going to comment until the president makes a nomination. commenting on the possible nomination of senator hagel as the next secretary of defense. leon panetta has not announced a departure date. off and o fawn, chuck hagel's former staffers worked through the weekend trying to solidify support, but you hear concerns on both sides about his nomination. >> yeah. the thing is that will be causing some questions inside the senate particularly. there's been so much focused on susan rice, and the secretary of state. i don't know that people have been worrying as much about the next defense secretary.

if there's anything you can say about him, he is his own man. while i think everyone likes him in the senate, it's not entirely clear how he would behave. there are some questions, for example, about his history on the homosexuals in the military. there's some questions about that. it's not entirely clear to me this will rise to the level as it did with susan rice, who remove her nomination in the last month or so. i don't know what the other options are, and with the secretary of state issue, you always had senator kerry as the option, which i think in the senate people were much more comfortable with that. if there were another name to be floated, that could either make former senator hagel's chances rise or fall. >> a clear backup plan. >> exactly. >> to the point you were making,

gale rights groups speaking out against hagel, but he did have a written apology for an insensitive colt that you were alluding to from 14 years ago. on that issue here, shirra, when we look at that apology he issued, which he opposed the nomination of james hormel in 1998, the nation's leading organization, they accepted his apology. is it enough to save hi potential nomination? >> it's certainly going to be helpful, as he faces the senate, especially with democrats action but look, that's not only thing people are talking about, there are concerns monday senators about the stances on israel, for example. it's quite interesting, because usually snort, they obvious support their colleagues

overwhelmingly like i expect we'll see with senator john kerry when he eventually gets a confirmation vote. that is not the case is chuck hagel. there's no benefit of giving him the doubt. in this says lindsey graham has front and center opposing rice, now hesitating on chuck hagel as well. since you brought up kerry here, he has been nominated to succeed hillary clinton. so if he is confirmed, fawn action what will happen to his senate seat? >> i think that's what the republicans are eyeing that seat with a bit of hope. it's not entirely clear that

scott brown will be returning, but certainly it's an option that perhaps for the republicans to have an additional seat in the senate, but there's no guarantee of that? >> i want to pay a bit of sound here from ben affleck. >> one never knows. i'm not one to get into conjecture. i do have a great fonds in and administration for the big business in this country. it's a big deal to been on this show which i've watched too much. right now i'm being happy being involved from the outside. we have affleck, but also kennedy being brought up. >> the late senator's son is being talked about as a potential candidate. he could very well run, though he's never run for office before. obviously his name is golden in the bay state. three members of congress as well, some who have been there

no decades, waiting for one of these seats to open up. i think it will be a very div e divided campaign. if they had one that could fund raise, that really does give him an advantage he wouldn't have otherwise. it will be interestings to see if massachusetts democrat it is can coalesce behind a single candidate, and avoid any party infighting. the latest poll showing scott brown is the man to beat, but time changes everything, as we now, thank you both so much. >> thank you. the head of the nra refusing to back down, calling for armed guards in schools. up next. plus no and tornadoes expected in some parts of the country just in time for the latest. the leie forecast for you. i'm command are susan ayers.

i wanted to say to my mom, dad and sister in melbourne action florida. i love you and miss you. sigh you soon. time for your business entrepreneur of the week. amber and marcy started north carolina based footsteps clothing which had a booming christmas theme pajama line. not want been to be just a seasonable business, they aded other holidays and eventually expanded to products that celebrate family life. for more watch us on sunday mornings on msnbc. i'd like one of those desserts and some coffee. sure. cake or pie? pie. apple or cherry? cherry. oil or cream? oil or cream? cream. ♪ [ male announcer ] the sound of reddi-wip is the sound of joy.

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take tylenol or take aleve, the #1 recommended pain reliever by orthopedic doctors. just two aleve can keep pain away all day. back to the news. yet another case of gun violence in webster, new york this morning. it happened about five hours ago when police say a group of firefighters were responding to the scene of a multihome blaze, only to find themselves ducking a hail of bullets the moment they stepped out of their trucks. four were shot, two are confirmed debt. investigators say there may have been more than one shooter in this shocking incident, but right now no one is in custody. we'll keep you updated as we get more details on msnbc. the nra is not giving any ground instead doubling down on

a plan to pud armed officers in every school. >> if it's crazy to call, to protect our children, then call me crazy. i'll tell you what, the american people -- i think the american people think it's crazy not to do it. pete williams is nbc's justice correspondent. this response we heard, was this widely expected from the nra? i'll say. they laid that marker down on friday when they basically said put armed guards in schools, look at the culture of violence in music videos, movies, television, look at the -- check records, how good the background system is, how thorough it is, and look 'treatment for the mentally ill. a menu of options. but absolutely no mention of

what is being debated now, restricting either the semiautomatic rifles known by some as assault weapons. the nra has absolutely no interest in that. all the nra spokesmen, the three of them on the programs yesterday made that very clear, richardivities as part of this here, pete, we know the vice president is putting together a panel. when you look at what he's doing, as he leaves that initiative to look at gun control special, does what he said over the weekend make it more difficult for him? >> the question is, will the president, will the vice president's operation reach out to the nra and include them in any discussions some when the president announced this last week, had a chance -- and he stopped short of that the wayne lapierre made it clear yesterday that he's not interested in being part of any discussion in this gun control or gun restrictions are on the table. so it doesn't seem very likely at this point that the nra will

be invited to talk about the president about this. it doesn't make it seem very likely. >> thank you so much. el to bring in ilya from the brookings institute. the nra says the answer is putting armed officers in schools, do you agree with that? >> if a local schooled board or school wants to do that, there are lots of schools in the country that have armed guards and metal detectors. most are inner city schools, that's a decision they have to make locally. i don't think the solution is a national plan, but there are different things we can look at. some could be labeled gun control, some gun rights, some are just common sense. >> ilya. armed guards as has been said since the tragedy in newtown, when we look at past examples, there were two officers there, they did shoot back at

columbine, it doesn't -- >> there were different protocols and the s.w.a.t. team waited outside, but colorado, speaking of columbine, passed a series of reform measures, including instant background checks, closing the gun shop -- but also allows conceal and carry, so people who pass certain tests and go through a certain test are allowed to carry. when there are so-called gun-free zones, they are actually gun-free with guards and controlled entrances. you don't just post a placard on the wall so the only people with guns are the crazies and criminals. wayne lapierre said he -- he wasn't open to discussing the issue of clips and limiting the size in his interview on "meet the press" yet you do have those on the right, such as kay bailey hutchison, who said that should be part of the conversation. do you agree?

>> i'm not here to defend or attack the nra or so-called gun lobby the i'm here about individual liberty. whether you call it so-called assault weapons which are ordinary rifles, like a pistol grip or extended stock, these things don't affect the functioning of the ordinary rifle that we're talking about, and would not have prevented any of thinks sorts of tragedies. so certain of those -- >> bazookas inside a clip would slow down a person who is off-center, if they are in such a situation, because they only have ten bullets or less per clip. that does make sense, doesn't it? >> well, you probably don't need 100, you might need more than ten. maybe if a lot of people are attacking you, you don't always hit them exactly. maybe 20 is the right number. not to quibble about the exact number, but that wouldn't have

stopped newtown. it's not like the first graders were going to charge the shooter when he was reloading or something. most of these proposals that are advocated at the top list of the so-called gun control movement don't affect these things. it's more about instant background checks, closing the loopholes and taking care of mental illness issues that we had not done well. there are no discussed juries that show banning guns or putting restrictions of the gun control kind do anything do -- >> there's a study that concluded that concluded more guns equals more murder. >> and there are other studies going the other way. the point isn't -- i think we can all agree we don't want criminals or the insane to have weapons. women walking home late at night, or people living in unsafe areas, where a gang activity prolive rates ought to be able to defend themselves. the question is specifically about schools or what have you,

is what are the measures and the only thing we can point to, the trend in these latest spate of shootings is mental ilniz. so that needs to be the fog us. both sides agree that is part of the discussion. ilya shapiro, thank you for your time today. >> thank you for letting me be here. tracesy velazquez, we heard what we were talking about there with ilya the suggestions to put in armed guards, armed police. and there are parents that say that's a good idea, the nra saying the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy. what do you say -- >> we actually have done this very expensive increase in terms of the number of people there's

a lot of negative impact. for instance, police who have spare time on their hands obvious use it to -- and that has negative consequences on the kids we're trying to protect. they end up with juvenile records, maybe expend fred school or suspended and never being able to get on track. i would also add that tragic as it is to say this, most kids who are victims of homicide are victims outside of school. last year that we had great data was on 2008-2009. that year they were about 1500 victims of homicide -- >> would you be open to actually

having trained guards at schools if parents want that in certain locations? would you be open to that? >> well, you know, what we want is for people to make informed decision. for instance, do parents understand that it will be the kids in the schools themselves likely to suffer the negative consequences, and there isn't a correlation between public safety and having police? schools. >> i want you to listen to wayne lapierre, talking about the high-capacity magazines that i was just discussing with ilya. isn't it just possibility keck redeuce the carnage? >> i don't believe that's going to make one difference. even if you had that, you had that for ten years when dianne feinstein passed that ban in '94, it was on the books. column buy occurred right in the middle of it. it doesn't make any difference. i know this town wants to argue about gun control.

i don't think that's what will work. >> what's your reaction? >> we don't deal with gun control specifically, but i can tell you we do a lot of work on incarceration. we know we as a society pay to incarcerate people who perpetrate gun violence. there are plenty of people in prison who are not criminals, who were caught up in emotion and the only crime they ever committed was a crime of passion. you know, if there hadn't been a gun present, if they weren't able to have access to a gun, it's hard to say. to say that it's an individual right is to ignore there's a huge social cost for all of us, not just in terms of victimization, but for instance, the cost of incarceration. we really need to look at this with a broader lens. >> assault weapons ban, some are saying it didn't work in '94 as lapierre is saying, and that's because manufacturers were able to tweak features on the gun to

work around. essentially you still have access to those guns, and for instance today, over 3 million ar-15s in the streets in the united states. some say deal with that first. >> what i would say is we have large corporations profiting from crime and punishment. manufacturers who are making money producing these weapons. we have private prisons and prison companies who profit from locking people up. it's time we also take a look at not just, you know, laws and policies which may play a role, but also where is corporate responsibility? where is stockholders responsibility? you're a stockholder in -- who are trying to get around laws being designed to keep people safe, then i think you need to look at what yours corporation is doing. the same from consumers ease point of view as wellivities tracy, thank you for your time.

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. in atlanta, last we spoke, there was lots of good news, gabe. >> reporter: that's right, richard. the thunderstorms that we've been experiencing. have let up. very minor delays, a little more than an hour ago, about 15 to 30 minutes in flights, but those have since cleared up. right now no major delays to report at any major airports. about 93 million americans are expected to travel this holiday, and the drivers are facing good news. gatt prices are down this month. down to an average of about $3.24 a gallon.

there might be severe weather in the southeast. so right know at the airports it will be fine, but be careful later in week. ? hurricane sandy victims will be closely watching capitol hill this thursday when the senate is expected to vote on the hurricanes relief bill. the 60.4 billion bill will pay for recovery efforts in states battered by sandy. michael grimm and peter king, who have been working with their colleagues, the residence,

because clearly this storm was not democrat other republican, it's a storm that hurt all of us. >> hurt all americans in of the northeast. >> absolutely. >> republicans are complaining of pork in this bill. you. >> 150 million for also as part of this, $20,000 for a new car for the department of justice's inspector general. a new car there. republicans who are criticizing the have a point? >> what's in this bill is a number of items that were damaged as a result of sandy. it's very similar to bills that have taken place in the kind of funding, whether it was tornadoes in the midwest or whether it was other hurricanes in florida or mississippi, other earthquakes, so, you know, we have this natural disasters when things are damaged. you try to replenish them and make sure certain things are in place in the event there's

another storm, so you don't have to woirk about being efficient, so there's nothing that's included in this bill, not included in other -- it was devastating to the northeast, as you know so wet here. the data is still coming into the severe weather and the damage, those who had losses, that's still in process. should we return to this number to determine what is best? >> we believe the damages will continue, so clearly 60.4, you know, we think is a good number, but after both governor christie and cuomo thought this number would be better -- would be close to 80. i still have individuals in my district, about 10,000 homes still waiting for power. so we know the numbers will increase. in katrina, they're still doing reconstruction there. six, seven years later. so it's going to take a while. we know, for example, even in my rockaway, where you had sand in

people's homes, they need toe replenished, jetties action things of that nature, to make sure we don't have the same kind of damage. god forbid we have a nor'easter or something of that nature, the sand that could protect the homes, you would have mass flooding right now, so we are still a little nervous out there. we need this funding, not piecemeal, so we can do it immediately to make those expenses and repairs, and then try to do what we need to do, so should there be another storm, we don't ever have to pay again. >> congressman, no matter what side i've been on, if you've been to the parts of new jersey, you understand they need this. thank you for your time on this monday. >> good to be with us. coming up for you, gifts and donations are pouring into newtown, connecticut, as the community struggles to figure out how to handle the holidays this year. next i'll talk to a pastor from

newtown. and what senator crapo is saying about that. hi, my name is reginald bell. i'm proudly serving at landstuhl medical center. i want to say it to my sister, happy holidays and best wishes in norfolk, virginia. ♪ i'm coming home this christmas ♪ ♪ a good time christmas for me ? lost your appetite for romance? and your mood is on its way down. you might not just be getting older. you might have a treatable condition called low testosterone or low t. millions of men, forty-five or older, may have low t. so talk to your doctor about low t. hey, michael! [ male announcer ] and step out of the shadows. hi! how are you? [ male announcer ] learn more at isitlowt.com. [ laughs ] hey!

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we don't want this to happen again. >> joining mess is pastor parker reareden. pastor, thanks for joining us today. when you think about this, as you've been thinking about what to -- at christmas mass, christmas mass alone is already a very emotional time, but you add in the tragedy. how will you address your congregation? what would your message be? >> well, our message is pretty consist president. it's the whole reason why christ came to earth, to atone for sinners and as manifest by this murder last friday. >> when you have spoken with your fellow pastors across the country, what have they said about what happened in newtown. i sat in on a couple services on the west coast. it was clearly something that was talked about. >> our fellow pastors are

reeling from the same travesty that occurred locally here. many others who have had to have these kind of situations and other tragedies, and the message is the same, to offer hope through christ. >> over the time, as you counseled your congregation, you spoke about this issue. how have things changed over the week. >> as far as -- as far as what, richard? >> when you're thinking of congregation -- how has the conversation changed over the last week? it's obviously been a difficult time. >> well, it's been an open door for us to minister the word of god to -- and as church as well as other churches that have joined with us from different states are seeking to minister the hope that comes through the word of god, and ministers to

the heart. >> pastor park reardone, thank you for your counsel and share your time with us today. coming up, will a deal get down. live for the latest on the fiscal cliff negotiations. hi, i'm desiree sanchez, i'd like to wish everyone a -- ♪ [ female announcer ] almost nothing can dampen a baby's mood, when he wakes up dry in pampers. unlike other diapers, pampers has 3 absorbent layers, for up to 12 hours of protection overnight, and more beautiful mornings. ♪

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that wraps up things for me on this christmas eve. thomas roberts picks up our live coverage next hour. we'll have more on tag romney's new comments that his father wanted to be president less than anyone that he has met. first, here's some holiday wishes from all the people behind the scenes at msnbc who work to bring the news every day

all year. ♪ >> happy holidays. >> happy holidays. >> have a very happy new year. >> happy holidays. >> happy holidays. ♪ >> happy new year from andrea mitchell reports. >> from news nation. >> merry christmas. >> felize navidad. >> happy festivus. >> happy holidays from the cycle. ♪ >> happy holidays from the alex witt team.

>> happy holidays from up with chris hayes. >> happy holidays from nerd land. ♪ >> merry christmas. happy holidays. ♪ >> happy holidays from msnbc. ♪ >> happy holidays. >> merry christmas. happy holidays.

>> happy holidays from the p.a.'s. >> from all of us at msnbc, merry christmas and happy holidays sxwloosh merry christmas. happy holidays. ♪ >> merry christmas. happy holidays, everybody. ♪ ♪ >> hello. what a wonderful 2012. i'm looking forward to a fantastic 2013. happy new year.

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